Interview with Veeten (Terence Stamp)
In a conversation with Veeten (formerly Terence Stamp), Maneesha asked him how he came to know of Osho.
Veeten: I've always felt a kind of unhappiness. I've always felt
a sense of longing in me. That something was missing in my life. At
first I thought if I were rich and famous, that emptiness would be
filled, and so I filled that. I became successful and acquired a
certain amount of money, but the emptiness was still there.
Then I thought perhaps it must be the fact I have never met a
woman that I was really in love with. Then I met a woman with whom I
really fell in love, and then in some way that space was filled. I
was just so happy that I felt complete with her. I was just so
certain of her. I just absolutely relied on her because I felt
certain that she was the one thing in my life that wouldn′t change
and wouldn′t desert me. And of course, she did!
Maneesha: Had you any sort of vaguely religious or anti-religious upbringing?
Veeten: Yes, I had the usual. I was a choirboy. I used to go to
church five times a week, but I did it for the money as far as I can
remember. I used to get paid to sing at weddings.
And I never believed in it, you know. I mean it didn′t make sense
to me - the Bible and things like that. I felt sure that they had got
it wrong in some way.
Maneesha: What lead you into becoming an actor?
Veeten: I don′t know. I always wanted to do that. I was born into a very poor family and in a very poor neighbourhood, and I always felt a bit out of place and very unhappy with my situation and the environment, so I invariably escaped into a world of cinema. I identified very much with the movies that I saw, then later on I realised that they were just movies, but the actors involved in them were the guys who were having a rather good time. So I had the feeling quite early on that I wanted to act.
Maneesha: I think you said on another occasion that you have been interested in Sufism?
Veeten: Well, after that disillusionment (of his love affair). As
a result of that kind of anguish that one′s in, if the anguish is
great enough, a way is open to you. And I just began to see things
rather differently. About that time I just started running into a different kind of
person with different interests. I was introduced to Gurdjieff and
Krishnamurti simultaneously really.
I met Krishnamurti but I couldn′t really understand what he was
talking about; it escaped me at the time. I realised that Gurdjieff
had had Sufi training, So I started reading Sufism. As a result of
that I gradually got to a point where I could understand what
Krishnamurti was saying. I think from all the books I had read, he
was the only guy who actually gave me something practical to work
with. Something that worked in fact.
Maneesha: Nevertheless, he wasn′t fulfilling something because you weren′t drawn to him?
Veeten: Well, he doesn′t get involved with people on a personal
level. I did understand what he was talking about, but I just found that
it was impossible for me to do. It took me years to make the
realisation that as he′s the only really heavy one I′ve met and he′s
telling me that is what I have to do, that′s what I have to do.
Maybe I′m just one of these guys who has to do it alone. Maybe it′s
not my karma to be a disciple. Maybe I just have to work things out
myself.
Full of longing and misgiving for a guru-disciple relationship, I
just started doing that - trying to get myself together in the way
Krishnamurti advocated.
In that state of affairs, I went to Ibiza, and a great friend of
mine who had been a companion on the path, laid "Just Like That"
(one of Osho′s books) on me in a very casual way so that I knew that
he wanted me to read it. I read it, and the first chapter was about
the classic relationship between the disciple and the guru! About
the ability of the guru to teach but the inability of the disciple
to learn.
That just made me incredibly tired (laughter). I mean it really
fatigued me. I actually went to sleep in the middle of the morning.
Then I thought "I′ll just finished the chapter" and I finished that
chapter. To cut along story short, I did finish the book.
As Sufism was something I′d really studied and really knew about,
this was like the definitive book on Sufism. I mean, it was written
by the greatest Sufi master ever! When I read the flap, it said that
he talks about different religions every month. I couldn′t really
believe it! I couldn′t believe that this was just one of the little
things he talked about!
So when I got back to London I started to try to find other of
his material, and I came across "The Book of Secrets". I′m a
technique freak - I mean I love them and I know hundreds. I′m totally
fascinated by techniques - and here were five volumes of every
technique known on earth. And I couldn′t believe it. It was like a
feast. Like a huge trunk of the most exquisite toys - and so many
techniques that I became really confused. I said, "I′ve actually
got to see the guy now because he′s got to advise me; He′s got to
tell me which is the one for me."
And he′s very wicked because he′s always talking about (Veeten
says in "significant voice"), "My ship is ready to sail", and that
freaked me out. I felt this fantastic sense of urgency that I had to
get there very quickly before his ship sailed. And that did it
really. I mean, I sailed here on "The Book of Secrets"!
Maneesha: Got him before he left?
Veeten: Yes! He got me before I left! And I have very strange things happen. People have told me, "You
should have seen him when he was talking about Buddha because you
really had the feeling that he became Buddha" So I was really
waiting for the English talks that were coming. I wanted to see him
become Kabir.
What′s really strange is that I see all the real masters that
I′ve studied. I studied with this man, Ilayat Khan. He is a Sufi, a
kind of enlightened Sufi, and I see his face in Osho′s face. There
are moments when Osho is talking and I can see Ilayat Khan′s face.
I′ve only seen photographs of the guy, but I see his face there.
And it′s really true. It′s becoming a reality for me. I really
can′t explain it. It′s become a kind of reality that out of that
vastness which I’ve only read about; I’m witness to him delving into
that and coming up with everything. It′s no longer an abstract term.
I mean, every day I′m here, I have proof of it.
Maneesha: What were your first impressions of the ashram?
Veeten: Well, I had a rather harrowing journey - like any long journey you take in India - so I was a bit exhausted. I paused outside the front of the gate and then I was questioned by a kind of Indian CIA gangster type.
Maneesha: (wide-eyed) a non-sannyasin?
Veeten: No, a sannyasin. Don′t know what his name is. He′s like a
big gangster. He said (in a Mafia-type voice), "Whatta ya want?" I
said, "I′ve come to see Osho". He said, "Well, the lectures are only
in Hindi this month." So I had the feeling he just wanted me to
leave. I thought he was unusually aggressive. Then I thought to
myself, "Well, maybe he′s just one of these people Osho has posted
to turn away the frail hearted (laughter) as he couldn′t have
been nastier.
As he wasn′t physically throwing me out, and I had promised to
send a book of Osho′s to someone in the West, I felt, "Well, I′ll
buy the book before I leave." So I went to the bookstore (by the
gates of the ashram) and I bought the book that I wanted. I asked
the woman in the bookshop if I could send the book from the ashram,
and she said, "Yes. You go down there and there is the office, and
you can speak to somebody in the office."
Feeling rather sheepish and eyeing up this Mafioso, I walked
rather tentatively to the office (laughter) where I met the lovely
Ghanda. That was the really nice thing that happened about the
ashram - there was this beautiful girl, shining like the sun, being
extremely kind and gentle.
So I said, "Well, listen. Can I talk to Osho?" She said, "Yes. No
problem. Where are you staying?" She gave me a list of hotels and
was just really nice and really charming. That was a very good
impression that I had from her. Very pleasant.
Then I think the thing that surprised me about the ashram is that
around any highly evolved soul there always seems to be created a
kind of spiritual displaced persons camp. You get people who′ve
tried everything and they just fasten onto a man that′s enlightened
and live in his aura.
Of course there is that element here, but what is unusual about
the people around Osho is that there are a lot of very intelligent
people. It′s not just a lot of old ladies. There′s a lot of
extraordinary people. I was really heartened by that.
I think the thing that′s different about this place is that the
majority of people here just seem very interested in their own
evolution, and they′re just using Osho. He′s just here to help them
to attain - and that, to my way of thinking, is right and proper. Here
one really gets the impression that Osho just wants you to get it
together as quickly as possible and split because he′s got lots to
do. And I like that. Its kind of business-like and practical. Well,
it′s the only way to live really. Nobody else can live your life for
you, no matter how great a soul he is. It′s something that you have
to do yourself.
Maneesha: Did you find it chaotic?
Veeten: No, I didn′t find it chaotic. I find it extremely well
organised and running very smoothly. I think as far as the
organisation side of it goes, it is the best running place I′ve been
to.
I think communes, they just don′t work. They just don′t work
because people are all on personal trips and they′re all trying to
love each other, but the fact is that people don′t love each other.
So the thing is being run on the basis that people do love each
other, and that′s not the fact; that′s not the reality - so it doesn′t
work.
Here there is no effort to love one another. There is no kind of
sentimentality. It′s like your here to learn to love yourself, and
you′re just using everything and everybody in order to achieve that
aim. And that′s very healthy because in a climate of constant self-questioning in fact things can work out very well.
Maneesha: So for you it′s very much everyone doing their own trip but there is no inter-connection?
Veeten: The interconnection is that everybody′s working on
themselves, and in that climate there is a certain kind of
relationship which is really different from when people are
pretending to love each other. There′s no pretension that people
love each other here. Maybe people do love each other, but it′s a
by-product. The essential thing is that people are trying to love
themselves; they′re trying to forgive themselves and trying to find
out what they really are and trying to be content with that.
Now in that individual striving there is a certain collective
ambience, but the collective ambience is just because the individual
is striving. So fifty people striving, struggling with themselves,
is a collective amount of people striving with themselves - which is a
lot different from fifty people trying to love each other.
What′s different about this ashram is that the priority is right.
The self-love comes first, the self-discovery comes first. I mean
what you feel about the other isn′t important. That′s just
bullshit. That′s just like Salvation Army. I mean everybody does
that. So here one′s lancing one′s own boils so to speak.
Maneesha: Do you feel that what is happening here is going to have repercussions in the world. That Osho is going to be a force in the world?
Veeten: Yes. For years I′ve been able to see that the world could
survive only if there was a revolution within the individual, and
that no kind of outer rules or regulations is going to make any
fundamental change. There has to be a kind of general feeling of
neighbourliness that comes from within people.
Been in discussion with intellectual people in the West, it′s
something that very few people seem to be able to grasp. They can′t
give up the idea of being a do-gooder. They think it is better to be
a do-gooder than a bad-doer. They just can′t see that they′ve got to
give up do-gooding. They′ve got to see that the do-gooding is a
postponement of getting themselves together.
For people who I′ve considered the pinnacles of society, it′s
really a blind spot; they don′t see that. They can′t see that the
world will change when they change themselves. It′s just something I
can′t get across to people, and so I′m misunderstood. Just a freak.
Immoral. What′s really impressive about Osho is that it is apparent
that that is what he′s doing.
Apart from all the dimensions upon which he′s working and I am
unaware of, the dimension that I am aware of is that he′s got this
group of people here, and they are all convinced of that fact that
the only thing that is really important is that they have to change,
that they have to bring about a fundamental transmutation within
themselves. And this ashram is designed solely for that.
It′s an accommodation, a space where everything is directed
towards making transmutation happen. So it′s the only serious place
in the world, really, looked at in those terms. If we can agree that
yes, the only fundamental change that can happen is if the
individual takes it upon himself to change - if we can except that as
a fact - then this is the only place in the world where it′s been made
possible for that happen.
Maneesha: Do you see any of it spreading over yet? From what people have got from themselves, do you see that it′s spreading? That they′ve come to love themselves. That they′re taking the responsibility for themselves? Do you see them helping other people without helping them?
Veeten: Yes. It takes a while to get close to people, and around
just a few people in the ashram that I have come close to who′ve
been around Osho for a while, there just seems to be a kind of
sweetness, a kind of energy that′s really reliable to, without them
being on a Salvation Army trip.
They′re not doing anything, they′re not going out of their way to
straighten people out, but just in the way that they are living
their lives, there′s a kind of an elegance about their
self-sufficiency in a way that really reaches you without them
really trying. That′s how I feel.
There′s just so many people around the ashram - they don′t speak to
you, they don′t know you. They′re just getting on with what they′re
doing. And it′s just really encouraging because they′re their own
men. But it is mainly from the people who live in the ashram.
Maneesha: Do you see, have you felt, the ashram to be a sort of learning place, a device of Osho′s for your growth?
Veeten: Yes. I feel it′s wonderful. I think it′s like a kind of
pressure cooker here. All the things that people in the West
do - Alexander technique, tai chi, rolfing, encounter groups,
enlightenment intensives - things like that, are here. I mean in the
West you′re a real freak if you go and say, ′I′m going to do a
vipassana meditation course. I′m going to sit for eight hours a day
in a monastery.′ You′re a freak, that′s all. You′ve lost your marbles!
There is no doubt about it. Your that and your out of the ordinary.
But here that ′that′ is normal. That is normal. And it seems to
me that Osho has taken all the techniques that people are using all
over the world in order to enlighten themselves. He′s brought all
those possibilities here, overseen by him so that nothing goes
wrong. Eventually I suppose, he will have actual tools with which
every archetype can work upon himself.
It′s just continually recurring in my mind that really this is
the place. Everything that one ever wanted to do, to study, one can
study here. The actual people, the group leaders, may not be the
best you can find, but they are representatives of Osho himself, so
they are the best you can find. And that′s the bottom line really.
So personally I feel extremely confident about all the groups I′m
involved in, and the kind of courses that I hope to take in the
future. It′s a fantastic place in which to work.
Maneesha: Will you say something about the intensive group that you did?
Veeten: The yin part of the intensive where you′re just listening
without any kind of reaction whatsoever at that time gave me a
fantastic sense of awareness - just being able to listen. During the
intensive I thought, ′Wow, this is something really valuable that
I′ve discovered here′, because I get the feeling that often in
relationships with people in the world, I′m into the relationship in
a kind of negative way. In other words I′m looking to get away from
whoever it is by like talking my ear off, and I wind up feeling very
exhausted.
During the intensive I thought, ′That′s a fantastic tool - if ever
I feel that I′m being bored and I want to get away from this person,
if I can just get into that totality of listening without
identifying.′
Then from the other half, from the yang half, I got to a point
where the constant questioning of ′Who am I?′ took me to a space of
just a sensation of myself. I remember the meditative walks that we
did during the break where I often had this feeling of a sensation
of myself that seemed not disconnected from whatever I was looking
at. It just seemed like a kind of outer and inner flow.
I went through a lot of changes really because it was hard for
me - it was hard to stay in the room. I was just thinking all the
time, ′well, I′ve done all this. What am I doing to get out of all
this?′
Then there was a kind of over voice which was telling me to just
stay. Then before going into encounter I thought, ′Well, it′s really
nothing. It′s just rapping and I can wing it - I can wing that. My
life′s like an encounter group - its not going to be anything new.′
I got very sick and very nervous just before the encounter group,
and I thought, ′Well I must do this, and it is obviously more
important than I thought.′ I went to be changed in the encounter
group. That was really like the first taste of the work. It′s just
breaking yourself, breaking yourself; just finding out really
deeply, finding out what′s beneath that. I think it′s the first
really serious confrontation I′ve ever had with myself because it′s
so intense, it′s so long that you just have to face yourself.
It′s really amazing looking back on it. It′s a very amazing
experience to have gone through and I can really understand why he
put me in there and why he puts people in it when they first come to
the ashram, because actually it′s a kind of levelling out device. In
the encounter I had a kind of opening. I felt in some way that the
centre where one feels emotions was just opened. Made more sensitive
to everything. Although the intensity of feeling faded away, I do
have the feeling that something lasting was gained.
Maneesha: Did you get the feeling that you were honest about how you were facing yourself, and how deep you′d go with it - how deep you′d go with your honesty?
Veeten: Yes. It became very clear to me if I wasn′t honest with
myself, if I wasn′t straight with myself, I would be just fooling
myself because I was there to confront myself. It was a kind of pre-arranged situation which was being put together in order that
certain individuals could come face-to-face with themselves.
I really could have avoided it and I could have come out of it
unaffected - but for what? I mean it would be like cutting off my nose
to spite my face. It seemed really silly not to confront myself, so
really all I had to do was to make sure that I just got into the
encounter room on time every day, because once I was out of the
encounter room, the fear that I experienced was pushing me not to go
back into the room. But once I was in the room, I knew I was there
to locate the fear when I felt it, and just to be honest with it and
confront it. It really seemed to work with me. The more honest I was
and the more straight I was with myself, the more I benefited.
The first day I was not putting a lot into it, because I was
nervous and I didn′t really understand the depth of encounter. It
was like another job, it was like another show that I was doing, but
once I realised that I would get out of the encounter just as much
as I put in, I started trying to work very seriously.
Then my personal difficulty was really consciously trying not to
act, not to perform, because it′s like a second nature. It′s as if
I′m not really conscious of it; I am just performing. I′m not really
aware that I am unless I′m giving it my total attention.
Maneesha: How did you see the ashram after the encounter, and what do you think Osho′s doing here?
Veeten: I don′t know what he′s doing really. I just feel that
there′s a big intelligence behind it - a very real big
intelligence - but I can′t fathom the depth of it. Every day really is
a revelation of dimensions of that intelligence - the way in which the
ashram works, the way in which he is working with the people.
This morning in the lecture for example, I was standing behind
that girl who is the leader of the vipassana group. Her parents had
obviously arrived and they were there seeing Osho for the first
time. I was identifying with them as being my parents. Seeing them
in this strange situation I was seeing him for the first time. And
he was really amazing because it seemed that he really devoted parts
of the lecture to them, to them personally, telling them and
explaining to them about their daughter who is here, and doing it in
such an incredible way that they couldn′t have helped but to have
had their minds blown.
A lot of things that throw me here in the ashram, just throw me
momentarily; then almost immediately I see how classic they are - like
the fact that one is living in the middle of a building site (the
office is currently being rebuilt). And it′s all working. It′s just
intended to keep throwing you back on yourself, throwing you back on
yourself.
To me it′s just extraordinary because they′re things that I′ve
read about Gurdjieff doing them. I′m familiar with them
intellectually and when they are happening to me and I feel
uncomfortable, then there′s the snap! And I can see the beauty of
it. So for me just living in the ashram, looking out, it′s really
like a pebble in the water. It′s just ripples and ripples and
ripples. And the more I want to look, the more and more ripples I′m
seeing. It′s just extraordinary.
And getting to know people, talking to people who′ve been with
Osho a long-time is really beautiful because one really gets the
impression that if you stay here, he′ll get you!
You feel you′ve got to stay, you′ve just got to do it. I′ve
really known how hard that is because I′m experiencing an incredible
nostalgia, and in my negative moments, pondering over my life
before. It′s really hard to visualise my life here, but the thing
that I′ve really decided is - and I′ve made a promise to myself - that I
won′t move in a negative state. I′ll just live out the negative
state and then I′ll decide to move - because I have this tremendously
strong feeling that if you stay, he′ll get you.
Talking with older disciples who have been with him much longer,
it′s wonderful to hear how he looks for them.
In a way what was so beautiful about the encounter group was that
it was a kind of microcosm of how he is taking us through this trip,
because here was this group of people that you were absolutely
certain bore you no malice whatsoever, and they were a really kind
and incredibly loving collection of people. And you knew that from
the way you felt about others in the group, because when I was being
at my most acid, I knew I was really trying to help them in some
way. I wasn′t acting from a hateful kind of centre.
So I was really convinced that they were a very loving group, and
yet at the same time when you were in the centre, when you were the
centre of attention, there was this kind of torment, there was this
kind of agony and fear that went on and the feeling of being
oppressed by them. It was just like these dual aspects of oneself.
During the Darshan of the encounter, and the conflict of the days
up until the day after the birthday (Osho′s birthday), I felt an
absolute joy. I felt really a sense of non-separation from him. A
sense of his perfume in a way, just permeating my life those days.
Then at a certain moment I started worrying about what my next
test would be, what was my next hurdle, and as that worry started,
the sense of presence just faded. Either it faded or I closed, but
it just subsided. There I was back to normal - but not back to normal
because of the loss. And I fell into that pit of wanting that
blissful state to continue. In the wanting for it to continue was
the ending of it really.
That′s where I was - in a kind of low because I felt something
incredibly new - the most exciting thing that had ever happened to me.
Then there was the out-breath and it took me unawares. It took a
while for me to realise that it was just a trip that I was putting
on myself, and that his presence was just there and available.
Maneesha: Have you been doing the meditations here?
Veeten: The two that I felt did something were the humming and
the light (Gourishankar). They reached me in some way. Maybe the
others clear you out or something. I can′t say that they′ve done
nothing for me, because I′ve noticed that when I wake up my spirit
seems rather low, and I′m assailed by negative possibilities about
everything. If I don′t get up immediately, my mind starts banging.
And of course when one jumps out of bed, runs downstairs (he
demonstrates some frenetic fire-briefing which is used in the
morning meditation), there′s no time for anything! By the time
you′ve staggered upstairs and had a shower, you′re feeling okay. So
there′s that very positive side too.
I go to a lot of the dancing meditations and things like that,
and I don′t believe I′m doing it, you know, because it′s so
frivolous! And I get a lot out of them. I mean, I have to own up to
this. (laughter) I get a great deal of life when I really freak out,
and I feel really good when I come out.
Maneesha: Were you in the habit of meditating daily before you came here?
Veeten: Yes. It was a Krishnamurti meditation just following each idea through to the end. Eventually you get to the point where they don′t pop up any more and you′re quiet.
Maneesha: You′ve been doing tai chi too?
Veeten: Yes, I′ve been doing it for years.
Maneesha: And yoga?
Veeten: Yes. I was doing yoga because I wanted to get completely straight. I worked with a pupil of Iyengar to get myself symmetrical. I′ve been working with the same thing with Rolfing (in the ashram).
Maneesha: How is the Rolfing?
Veeten: The Rolfing is really working. It′s really good news. It′s a very good system and I really dig it.
Maneesha: Had you thought about taking sannyas before you met Osho?
Veeten: No, because it′s a big joke in the West, and especially in the circles I move in. They′re really scornful about it.
Maneesha: You mean film people?
Veeten: No, not film people. Just people that are interested in evolution, intellectual people.
Maneesha: How do you feel after taking sannyas?
Veeten: It felt absolutely right. During the night I had a kind
of - what is for me - an experience of a phenomenon on the place where
he had actually touched my forehead.
I woke up In the night, or I was aware of something during the
night. I was aware of a feeling as though my head was being
squeezed - this part (indicating the third eye).
It was such a strong sensation, although it was not a sensation
that I′d felt before. It wasn′t like a headache or anything like
that.
It was just a very strong sensation on the forehead, but the
sensation was strong enough to take my attention so that I was just
able to witness the thoughts going by. And as that was exactly what
he had been talking about in the Darshan, it was very
extraordinary - a very extraordinary experience.
When he spoke I understood everything intellectually, naturally.
But this thing that happened during the night... I was actually
experiencing it. I thought it was tremendously valuable, and
although it′s not something that has continued or I have been able
to do, it was a real kind of...
It seemed to me that I had taken sannyas because he impressed me
intellectually, and it seemed that he had just let me know that
(extends his hands out in front of him as if to express what words
couldn′t convey)... It was really phenomenal for me, because as I say,
I don′t experience phenomena.
Maneesha: What do you think your family′s reaction to your taking sannyas will be?
Veeten: Well, I think they just be depressed. They′ll probably think I′ve ′got religion′. They′re working-class people.
Maneesha: So you feel they will just think you have gone a little mad?
Veeten: Oh, but they all think that anyway. Ten years ago when I
stopped eating meat and fish, my mother and father first thought I
was going to die - to physically fall down and die. Then fifteen years
ago I let my hair grow long and they just thought I was a
homosexual.
I can′t really run my life too much concerned about what other
people think. Inevitably you know, everybody just follows you
anyway. It′s just that the first few years are difficult if you′re
doing something that′s a bit unusual. My friends and family have
been through so much with me, they′ll just think, ′What′s he into
now?′ It′s what I am really not what I do.
Maneesha: Do you see Osho as a person or as an energy force, or something else again?
Veeten: On that few occasions that
I′ve actually just talked to him one-to-one, there′s an incredible
incorrigibleness, there′s just a kind of naughty side that′s
absolutely devastating.
In the encounter Darshan when he was explaining to me that the
last time he had seen me he had sent me on a wild goose chase. I
knew and he knew, but he wanted to just make absolutely sure. He
wanted to own up to me. And it′s just a kind of naughtiness that′s
totally devastating.
Maneesha: Yes, it′s just a sheer joy when he does that. I feel very close to him when he is joking with us and I just melt when he laughs. He′s more solid at that time. I can feel more close to him because he′s sort of solid. There′s a bit more there to him.
Veeten: Yes. It is really heartening to see that, because one is
in awe of him a lot - that′s the fact. When he′s talking and that
feeling is coming up - one is just in awe - then suddenly he says
something really funny, and you realise there is that side of him
that is of the same material that we are made of.
It′s really fantastic that I′m here with him. I mean, it′s hard
for me just to relax and accept it because I feel I′ve been on such
a long road. It′s just taken such a long time, and I really can′t
believe it.